TVNZ Picture Qual

[shadownz]

This has been touched on in another discussion,

I'm watching One News at the moment on a 42" panasonic full HD plasma tv, have def noticed in the past few days the picture qual is starting to show that "compressed" look, similar to some of the chans sky compresses the hell out of.

Reserved 4,5 and 6 are all running TV1 also.

[krs]

Was sent this the other day.

"Also here is a statement from TVNZ regarding the picture quality TV One and TV2 on Freeview Satellite.

“TVNZ is currently undertaking internal testing relating to the planned introduction of new services, and regrets the variation to your viewing experience that you have reported. This testing will continue for some time however whilst TVNZ determines the optimum set of configuration parameters relevant to its new mix of services.”

Regards,

Tim Diprose

Supply Chain and Product Manager"

[kiwisteve]

So what they are saying is they will keep reducing the quality until
the number of complaints gets too high !!:D:D
But yes it looks much nicer on DTT

[Green]

I know DTT is being broadcast in HD, but most of the material is just upscaled SD. There is no (technical) reason for the DVB-S to look almost as good in these cases. Any difference will be due to bandwidth restrictions TNVZ put in place for commercial reasons - and it is sad that the difference is so noticeable.

It is interesting that Freeview claim on their website "DVD quality widescreen picture and sound", but there doesn't appear to be any requirement on broadcasters to maintain a minimum PQ.

[Apsattv]

Wait a minute, once they start using the regional feeds of Tv1 that are up now, then they should be able to remove the TV1 "National region feed"

Sky are still using the National feed on their own T.P I expect it will be dropped from 12671 H once the regional feeds go live. Sky will take it off the Freeview T.P.

[wiredr]

i know this isn't very scientific but an analysis of some recorded files made from dtt, shows that tv one,s bit rate hasn't changed in over 6 months but tv3 have increased their average bit rate by 20% in the last month. ie tv3
oct 08 76.22mb/min , hamilton v8,s 94.4 mb/min all since tv3+1 started.

[krs]

Wait a minute, once they start using the regional feeds of Tv1 that are up now, then they should be able to remove the TV1 "National region feed"

Sky are still using the National feed on their own T.P I expect it will be dropped from 12671 H once the regional feeds go live. Sky will take it off the Freeview T.P.

Is it a definate known that "the planned introduction of new services" is just the regional advertising? I was hoping for something more.

[krs]

i know this isn't very scientific but an analysis of some recorded files made from dtt, shows that tv one,s bit rate hasn't changed in over 6 months but tv3 have increased their average bit rate by 20% in the last month. ie tv3
oct 08 76.22mb/min , hamilton v8,s 94.4 mb/min all since tv3+1 started.

There was an incredible diffence between the D1 TV3 channel and the Feed off D2 for the V8's over the weekend. That is to be expected I suppose but seeing all thoses little pixellated boxes over what is one of NZ's major sporting events is very sad. Not to mention the almost 15 time delay and the advert breaks.

[openmedia]

Wait a minute, once they start using the regional feeds of Tv1 that are up now, then they should be able to remove the TV1 "National region feed"

Sky are still using the National feed on their own T.P I expect it will be dropped from 12671 H once the regional feeds go live. Sky will take it off the Freeview T.P.

TVNZ are planning on 4 regional feeds for TV One if I remember their press release correctly. Hence the current "national" feed will become one of the regional feeds.

[Biggles]

i know this isn't very scientific but an analysis of some recorded files made from dtt, shows that tv one,s bit rate hasn't changed in over 6 months but tv3 have increased their average bit rate by 20% in the last month. ie tv3
oct 08 76.22mb/min , hamilton v8,s 94.4 mb/min all since tv3+1 started.

Its the opposite on the satellite feeds, TV3 have actually dropped their bitrates on dvbs since they started TV3+1 & are noticably more compressed (reflected directly in the size of shows i have recorded every week)

More channels = less bandwidth = crappy PQ

[Biggles]

I've read on some other forums that Freeview are now denying that there is a problem with the picture quality on freeview satellite, which means we are probably stuck with a sub standard (compared to what it was like) Satellite TV Service.
The quality used to be ok until Mediaworks dropped TV3’s bandwidth so that they could run TV3+1 & TVNZ started “testing other options” & dropped the bandwidth on TV1 / 2 and never fully increased them again.
So I guess this is the end of good quality free satellite TV.
I see Freeview have updated their website and have a comparison graphic of analog vs digital (what a joke, the digital needs to be all pixilated if it’s a true representation)

"Freeview, Crystal Clear (Pixelated) Digital Quality Televison"

[Biggles]

Well my daughter was watching TVNZ 6 yesterday and anyone would be mistaken to think it was filmed in Legovision it was so pixelated it wasn't funny!!!!!

"Freeview, Crystal Clear (Pixelated) Digital Quality Television"

I say we should take this to the top - The Broadcasting Minister!!! Hon Dr Jonathan Coleman
email - j.coleman@ministers.govt.nz
We need a Picture Quality standard for satellite digital television in New Zealand (& Digital Terrestial), If we are being forced to switch to digital TV then the free to air service needs to meet a certain standard.
Freeview have always claimed "DVD quality" which for most people this would be about 6mbps.
The Freeview Satellite feed has been sabotaged by TVNZ & Mediaworks trying to force duplicate feeds of TV One & TV3 when there simply isn't enough bandwidth on the feeds for these extra channels without reducing the other channels bitrate & ultimately picture quality.

Come on NZ let our concerns be heard - email our Broadcasting Minister & tell him what you think.

[Apsattv]

They should be able to fit 8 channels per 27mhz there in perfectly fine quality. I'm thinking they may need to upgrade their encoder hardware?

[Biggles]

They should be able to fit 8 channels per 27mhz there in perfectly fine quality. I'm thinking they may need to upgrade their encoder hardware?

No doubt they have spent millions of dollars on their encoder hardware & it’s probably not as good as a low cost off the shelf encoder (that seems to be mentality of big corporations) :p

[kiwisteve]

Change out to Mpeg4 and new STBs !! now would that create a fuss !! :D:D:D But yes picture use to be similar on SD channels to DTT now the DTT looks much better :):)

[Green]

They should be able to fit 8 channels per 27mhz there in perfectly fine quality. I'm thinking they may need to upgrade their encoder hardware?

Correction:

They should be able to fit 8 _statistically independent_ channels per 27mhz...

A VBR strategy breaks down when you broadcast the same channel 4 times. VBR relies on the fact that peak bandwidth is not required by channels at the same time - and that will only be true when TV1 broadcasts ads. (Somewhat ironic isn't it - the adds will be better quality than the main broadcasts, but everyone will use Tivo to skip them!)

It would be an interesting experiment to see how PQ changes if you stagger each instance of TV1 by say a minute.

[Apsattv]

I would still be interested to know how old the encoder is that they are using.

Even mpg2 benefits as much as %30 more bandwidth compared with older encoder hardware.

Its 9 channels anyway..

[kiwisteve]

One way to help the encoding would be swap 2 of the TVNZ regional channels over to the Kordia 12456 mux
and move the two Maoiri channels over to 12483 , that should help but I cant see that happening !! lol :D:D:D

[openmedia]

One way to help the encoding would be swap 2 of the TVNZ regional channels over to the Kordia 12456 mux
and move the two Maoiri channels over to 12483 , that should help but I cant see that happening !! lol :D:D:D

Maori TV is on 12483 already, it is Te Reo that is on 12456.

I agree that the regionals should be split across transponders to improve the capability of the encoder.

Here is an example of how bad the macroblocking can get from Mistresses on TV One about 2 weeks ago

http://www.openmedia.co.nz/video/macro1.png

The bitrate averages aren't very good

http://www.openmedia.co.nz/video/Screenshot-Bitrate%20Histogram.png

[Apsattv]

I checked an older news release and it mentions TVNZ will use a Harmonic Electra 1000 MPG2 SD Encoder for their Freeview satellite feed.

Modern enough hardware that should not have a problem dealing with 8/9 channels in the one half T.P



http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20080416005464&newsLang=en

[Biggles]

I checked an older news release and it mentions TVNZ will use a Harmonic Electra 1000 MPG2 SD Encoder for their Freeview satellite feed.

Modern enough hardware that should not have a problem dealing with 8/9 channels in the one half T.P



http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20080416005464&newsLang=en

"The Electra 1000 optimizes compression efficiency with up to four variable bit-rate (VBR) encoders"
http://www.harmonicinc.com/view_product.cfm?id=276

So I guess they must a few of these to run all their feeds?

So obviously
a) Someone has screwed up the settings & they don’t know how to fix it
b) They’ve purposely set the Bitrate limits low so they can squeeze more channels in the mux
c) The issue is somewhere in the satellite feed stage (freeview)
d) A combination of all of the above

[openmedia]

"The Electra 1000 optimizes compression efficiency with up to four variable bit-rate (VBR) encoders"
http://www.harmonicinc.com/view_product.cfm?id=276

So I guess they must a few of these to run all their feeds?

So obviously
a) Someone has screwed up the settings & they don’t know how to fix it
b) They’ve purposely set the Bitrate limits low so they can squeeze more channels in the mux
c) The issue is somewhere in the satellite feed stage (freeview)
d) A combination of all of the above

Most of the problem will be trying to feed four almost identical channels into the same multiplex. When they all want to peak their bit rate there isn't enough bandwidth to go around.

[Biggles]

The problem effects TV2 & TVNZ 6 as well (probably the other channels as well but these are 2 I’ve noticed the macro blocking, digital artefacts & full screen pixelation) so there must other issues as well as the 4 identical TV One feeds.

[openmedia]

The problem effects TV2 & TVNZ 6 as well (probably the other channels as well but these are 2 I’ve noticed the macro blocking, digital artefacts & full screen pixelation) so there must other issues as well as the 4 identical TV One feeds.

The TV2 and TVNZ6 channes are sharing the same transponder so will have similar issues.

In general TVNZ 6 + 7 have a lower bitrate than One and 2 anyway. This is similar to the UK where BBC3 + BBC4 are much lower quality than BBC1 and BBC2.

Just noticed that TVNZ have turned off Sports Extra on Optus D1.

[kiwisteve]

I feel sorry for those in NO Dtt coverage areas !!:confused::confused:

[shadownz]

I'm at my parents place at the moment who are using a Hills DVB-S box at present, picture qual seems to look much better than it was when I was last out here a month ago, so I assume with switching off sports extra they have spread the bandwidth out more

[kiwisteve]

I wouldn't have expected a near static pic ( non program times ) of low bit rate would have made very much difference perhaps encoder settings have been changed ??:D:D

[krs]

Below is a quick reply from FV about current picture quality problems..

"TVNZ is currently undertaking internal testing relating to the planned introduction of new services, and regrets the variation to your viewing experience that you have reported. This testing will continue for some time however whilst TVNZ determines the optimum set of configuration parameters relevant to its new mix of services"

[openmedia]

Below is a quick reply from FV about current picture quality problems..

"TVNZ is currently undertaking internal testing relating to the planned introduction of new services, and regrets the variation to your viewing experience that you have reported. This testing will continue for some time however whilst TVNZ determines the optimum set of configuration parameters relevant to its new mix of services"

Old stock reply. Since they remove Sports Extra things have actually gotten worse on several shows.

[Biggles]

Below is a quick reply from FV about current picture quality problems..

"TVNZ is currently undertaking internal testing relating to the planned introduction of new services, and regrets the variation to your viewing experience that you have reported. This testing will continue for some time however whilst TVNZ determines the optimum set of configuration parameters relevant to its new mix of services"

Yes, this is the answer everyone have received for the last 2 months.
Funny how there is no mention of this 'Testing' on the Freeview website (or an apology), in fact I cannot find any info on the official website to explain the macroblocking, pixelation etc, not even in the FAQ which list common problems!!!
I did notice that on the website it now describes Digital Vs Analog as 'near DVD quality', i'm pretty sure it didn't used to say 'near', I guess they are covering their a$$ so they don't breach any false advertising claims.

Seems Odd that there has absolutely been no media coverage (that i've seen) of this crappy picture quality while they undertake these tests.
Am I just being paranoid ie cover-up? or do people just not care?
or is it because it only effects the satellite viewers which isn't a large enough audience vs the terrestrial digital viewers?:confused:

[Apsattv]

Umm, the Satellite service has a far higher takeup rate than the Terrestrial service.

Another issue they need to address, with the TVNZ Transponder being at a lower signal level compared with SKY's and Kordias, Which transponder? is gonna crap out first during bad weather conditions?

[kiwisteve]

1000 posts eh !!! I think you have too much spare time !!! lol :D:D:D:D

[allstarnz]

There was an incredible diffence between the D1 TV3 channel and the Feed off D2 for the V8's over the weekend. That is to be expected I suppose but seeing all thoses little pixellated boxes over what is one of NZ's major sporting events is very sad. Not to mention the almost 15 time delay and the advert breaks.

Globecast (the uplink provider) do run their feeds at very high bit rates, often at about 8mb/s, which would account for the superior picture quality :D

[sky_satt]

Am I just being paranoid ie cover-up? or do people just not care

" Its a Conspiracy " :eek:;):D

[Biggles]

I sent this email to freeview last week - surprise, surprise I got no response.

'Why are Freeview being so secretive about the picture quality issues on the satellite service caused by TVNZ reducing their bitrate to squeeze in 4 regional versions of TV One?
There is no info on your official website not in the news or the FAQ? What are you trying to hide?
I’ve heard reports of people returning their decoders because they thought they were faulty only to find out it’s the satellite feed that is to fault.
Be honest let your viewers know what is happening!!!!'

Either they don't think there is a problem or they are keeping it quiet.
:confused:

[Apsattv]

I heard there is no one left in the engineering side that knows what they are doing!

I believe it as well!

[kiwisteve]

who's engineering side ??

[Apsattv]

at TVNZ

[Biggles]

I've started a Facebook group to try and draw attention to the Satellite picture quality issues on Freeview.

'We want DVD quality back on Freeview (NZ) - Quality not Quantity'

Or just go on Facebook and do a search for - Freeview nz

It would be great if any Facebook users would join it and share the link to all their friends.

I’ve add some sample pictures & videos showing the problem that other concerned people have posted on forums & will update it with any news as I get it.