Transfered from APSATTV

[Tony Dunnett]

Re: NZ digital tv forum


Total Crap , Aussi has had DTT going for a long time , cheap units
ANY ONE can afford , for under $100.000 making them ideal for
multiple room use Any idea what NZ's DTT units will cost , BET they
wont be $79.95 and i bet you wont have one in every room.


-- In Apsattv@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Browning" <kbrowning@...> wrote:
>
> Australia picked on the wrong system (again)
> That's why.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "supra4life2007" <supraz4life@...>
> To: <Apsattv@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 12:19 PM
> Subject: [Apsattv] Re: NZ digital tv forum
>
>
> Dont see why they wont work here when DVB-T is started next year.
>
> Aaron
>
>
> --- In Apsattv@yahoogroups.com, "Lin Scott" <lin.scott@> wrote:
> >
> > -Would someone a lot more knowledgeable than me on these matters
> please
> > look at items G2128 and G1185 on the Australia Dick Smith website
> (
> > www.dse.com.au ) and tell me if they are suitable for NZ. One of
my
> > sons in Brisbane works nextdoor to a DSE store and has offered to
> buy
> > me one.Many thanks.
> > Lin Scott
> >

[openmedia]

Re: NZ digital tv forum

Total Crap , Aussi has had DTT going for a long time , cheap units
ANY ONE can afford , for under $100.000 making them ideal for
multiple room use Any idea what NZ's DTT units will cost , BET they
wont be $79.95 and i bet you wont have one in every room.



As I replied on the apsattv forum the AU DTT system is full of issues. I'll have another look this weekend as I'm over in OZ, but in general most people haven't gone over to DTT because of the lack of choice. Filling up all of their available bandwidth with existing services was a daft idea.

The UK model, albeit on the second go, of providing a lot of choice seems to have worked.

Also the picture quality of HD in OZ leaves a lot to be desired when compared with the BBC's H264 based HD service.

So the choice is NZ$100 MPEG2 only DTT boxes, or NZ$400-500 SD/HD H264 boxes. Given the 3 multiplexes they have available MPEG2 would mean SD only services, so I'd rather go the HD route.

Plus it won't take that long for H264 boxes to come down in price now that services are being rolled out elsewhere in the world.

Steve

[cyril]

The fact that you can buy SD DVB-T boxs in Aus for under $100, infact Target and some supermarkets have had boxs on special as low as $40, makes one wonder why we are still paying twice that for DVB-S boxs. Worldwide the demand for DVB-S SD boxs is probably the greatest when you concider the europe, the middle east and asia, so hopefully its only a matter of time and NZ importers can deliver cheap and cheerful chinese clones (non certd of course) for $50 in the checkout lanes at Wollies.

Cyril

[Tony Dunnett]

The fact that you can buy SD DVB-T boxs in Aus for under $100, infact Target and some supermarkets have had boxs on special as low as $40, makes one wonder why we are still paying twice that for DVB-S boxs. Worldwide the demand for DVB-S SD boxs is probably the greatest when you concider the europe, the middle east and asia, so hopefully its only a matter of time and NZ importers can deliver cheap and cheerful chinese clones (non certd of course) for $50 in the checkout lanes at Wollies.

Cyril

Using 64 Qam, each 8 MHZ channel should be able to realise at least 30 Mbits total at FEC 5/6 and 1/16 guard interval that would still mean using Mpeg2 two HD and two standard def channels per multiplex.So it can be done as we all know, i am not bitching about who's right or wrong , what i am saying is in response to the post i answered was , Australia has had DTT and HDTV for several years now. Mpeg 4 was still being talked about when they launched , so they did the best they could with the equipment available to them at the time and no one can deney that the equipment is priced to sell to the public.

The other issue was lack of programming choice , well if there are no new channels in a country with nearly four times the population to NZ what do we expect here. Look at the DBS offerings , where are all the regionals where is the new breed of broadcaster , who should be leaping at the oppertunity the best we get is TV6 ,Stratos and parliarment. No one is leaping anywhere let alone onto Freeviews platform it would seem.

Its very interesting to note that if the rumour is correct that the two certified box sales are well down on the sales of non certified and cheaper STB's does that not tell us all the mood of the public who are expected to part with their hard earned CASH.

[bartender]

Now I have been reading this debate rage over various forums and one thing I seem to be missing is why can't a "dual" approach be achieved??
MPEG2 for SD content and H.264/MPEG4 for HD?
That way we would have the best of both worlds IMHO, firstly you would get the cheap boxes ex-aus etc for sub $100, then for the people who have already splashed out on a Widescreen HD TV with HDMI interface they can pay $400-$500 for a HD set.

To me that would make the most sense??? Now I am not exactly sure how it would work out (can you have a mpeg2/4 on the same TP?, or would you need to split them between different TP's?)

I personally think it's a way to get everyone onto Satellite myself. I could pick up a DVB-S STB & Dish for less than a MPEG4 HD set, I would go that way (since I like a lot of the country don't have a HD TV).

[krs]

Panels will have the recievers built in anyway soon. Right about when DTT is launched. Why buy a reciever at all?

[kiwisteve]

Why buy a STB / Receiver ??
I would rather an external receiver , then I can feed the DVD recorder
without the tv set turned on . and
from what I have seen in European pricing sets with build in DVB T were much more expensive .

[richms]

Yeah, if you want an analog link in the path to your dvd-recorder then a STB makes sense, but if you want to record HD then thats not going to be any use to you, plus you have the artifacts of another digitization and encode process lowering quality of your SD stuff that you do record.

Unfortunately h264 will not drop straight onto a dvd so you may still have to do that if you want to archive stuff off, but I would rather a HDD recorder that does native h264.

[nickrout]

The fact that you can buy SD DVB-T boxs in Aus for under $100, infact Target and some supermarkets have had boxs on special as low as $40, makes one wonder why we are still paying twice that for DVB-S boxs. Worldwide the demand for DVB-S SD boxs is probably the greatest when you concider the europe, the middle east and asia, so hopefully its only a matter of time and NZ importers can deliver cheap and cheerful chinese clones (non certd of course) for $50 in the checkout lanes at Wollies.

Cyril

Why not import one yourself? If they are cheap enough to buy and import cheaply, theres nothing to stop you is there?

And anyway there are DVB-S boxes on trademe for $125 "buy now".

[QUOTE=richms]Unfortunately h264 will not drop straight onto a dvd so you may still have to do that if you want to archive stuff off, but I would rather a HDD recorder that does native h264.[QUOTE]

Neither will Mpeg-2 HD, as DVDs are only as max of 720x576 (or 720x480 in NTSC).

if you want to back up h264, just write a data file to a DVD and play it back later.

[Apsattv]

Yes its no problem getting $15 u.s each DVB-S gear from China any factory will deal with you.

How many did you want 50000?

what? you only want 1000??

pfttttttttttt not interested

oh and you really get what you pay for low end units made of plastic that don't pass any nz safety regulations.

oh and when you get them here, after you pay freight and customs you will need NZ C-Tick approval thats more $. Just look at some of the crap being sold on Trademe.

but in saying all that sub NZ $100 units are here. Coships in bulk go for $80 or so trade price.

[kiwisteve]

Very true about quality and some don't even have legal NZ Mains plugs
fitted to them :o:o

[krs]

Why buy a STB / Receiver ??
I would rather an external receiver , then I can feed the DVD recorder
without the tv set turned on . and
from what I have seen in European pricing sets with build in DVB T were much more expensive .

TV's will also have hard drive recorders built into them.
Anyone willing to wager $5?...

[cyril]

but in saying all that sub NZ $100 units are here. Coships in bulk go for $80 or so trade price.

Yeah fully understand that you get what you pay for, but as far as C-tick goes, you can buy DVB-T mpeg2SD boxs in Aus for under $50 that have passed all the approriate tests, and by all accounts are still working just fine 12-18months latter, but I guess they must have taken a few containers worth to get the price.

Pity the Coship didnt have all the basic firmware options such as 4:3LB.

Cyril

[ahnz]

but as far as C-tick goes, you can buy DVB-T mpeg2SD boxs in Aus for under $50 that have passed all the approriate tests, and by all accounts are still working just fine 12-18months latter
Cyril

To clarify:

1) DVB-T transmission in NZ will be MPEG-4. In Australia it is MPEG-2. This is different. Aussie model imports won't work here.
2) We are MPEG-4/HD in NZ so are at the leading end of the receiver market.
3) MPEG-2/HD receivers were also not cheap when they were leading in technology.
4) There are not many DVB chipsets offering MPEG-4/HD so with EU converting in bulk, shortage of chipsets will hold the price.
5) MPEG-2 is outgoing technology and most likely be replaced entirely by MPEG-4 or better so NZ decision to go MPEG-4 in my view is probably the right decision.
6) As for cheaper boxes, receivers will go down in price over a period as the technology develops.
7) There was mention of TVs with a HDD. Yes, I have seen IDTVs with a PVR option for DVB-S2 and DVB-T.


Anil Hari/ASoft Ltd
Home of "Kaon" digital television receivers

[Tony Dunnett]

Actually most of us are aware of these statements,

No one is disputing anything you have said, so how long before Mpeg4 is replaced by Mpeg 6 do we all scrap everything because we are lagging behind again , the original post was that AUST made the wrong choice.

I countered by saying Australia has had DTT and HDTV for several years , and now find themselves in the position we will be in in five years time.

Yes i think we all agree with your info, but DTT as currently sold in OZ is cheap enough to place one unit in every room, do away with the VHF antenas and just distribute UHF around the house and tap in as required.

As for Mpeg 2 being an out going technology, well their are an awful lot of Mpeg 2 boxes world wide, and if you were in the industry in those days you will remember a technology which Direct TV launched with called DSS this was later upgraded to MPEG 2

However the Direct tv package dish , STB cable mount the whole system sold for $499 and that was over 15 years ago it had to be otherwise it would not have sold. What will slow down the uptake will be the cost to the end user of the hardware.

Look how VCR's took off when they dropped to under $1000 , in 1988 a panasonic NV2000 cost $2500 NZ. how many were sold virtually none.

Dont forget the HDTV box is just the start , what about a suitable display device and probably aerial system over haul , some how i dont see the masses leaping up and down in a excited frenzy at the peospect of HDTV costing them between $6000 to $8000 do you?

We are not talking Toys for the Boys or Big Boys Toys , we are talking about a sytem with an acceptable cost to JOE PUBLIC.

In all honesty i beelive there will be two HDTV networks one MPEG4 DTT and one MPEG2 via satellite as there's going to be such an outcry from people wanting it outside the metro area, i see another network having to go on satellite in order to quell the rebellion.


To clarify:

1) DVB-T transmission in NZ will be MPEG-4. In Australia it is MPEG-2. This is different. Aussie model imports won't work here.
2) We are MPEG-4/HD in NZ so are at the leading end of the receiver market.
3) MPEG-2/HD receivers were also not cheap when they were leading in technology.
4) There are not many DVB chipsets offering MPEG-4/HD so with EU converting in bulk, shortage of chipsets will hold the price.
5) MPEG-2 is outgoing technology and most likely be replaced entirely by MPEG-4 or better so NZ decision to go MPEG-4 in my view is probably the right decision.
6) As for cheaper boxes, receivers will go down in price over a period as the technology develops.
7) There was mention of TVs with a HDD. Yes, I have seen IDTVs with a PVR option for DVB-S2 and DVB-T.


Anil Hari/ASoft Ltd
Home of "Kaon" digital television receivers

[ahnz]

Noted. I will leave it for the "JOE PUBLIC" to decide on take up. As for two HD platforms, yes, I also see a Terrestrial and Satellite option available.

AH

[paulw]

A
In all honesty i beelive there will be two HDTV networks one MPEG4 DTT and one MPEG2 via satellite as there's going to be such an outcry from people wanting it outside the metro area, i see another network having to go on satellite in order to quell the rebellion.

I very much doubt that we will see a Sat MPeg2 HD service if the rest of the world is anything to go by. In the US sat providers are changing out mpeg 2 STB and DVR to mpeg 4 ones as fast as they can. Sky NZs offering here next year will be mpeg4 I hear..

[cyril]

To clarify:

1) DVB-T transmission in NZ will be MPEG-4. In Australia it is MPEG-2. This is different. Aussie model imports won't work here.
2) We are MPEG-4/HD in NZ so are at the leading end of the receiver market.


ahnz, I am well aware of the technology and what will be deployed here your telling the wrong audience, my comment simply refered to the fact that a mpeg2SD DVB-T STB can be purchased in Aus for under $50, which is no where near the price we are paying for DVB-S mpeg2SD boxs that are 99% identical and in technical terms differ by only a small component of equal value.

Cyril

[openmedia]

I'm in Brisbane at the moment and some of the pricing is interesting.

SD STBs range from AU$50-AU$120, with the $50 units looking rather flimsy.

If you want HD MPEG2 then you are looking at AU$200-350.

Most of the PVR units I've seen so far only have a single SD Digital tuner for about AU$599 upwards.

So HD H264 tuner for NZ$350-400 doesn't actually look that bad.

Steve

[Apsattv]

ahnz, I am well aware of the technology and what will be deployed here your telling the wrong audience, my comment simply refered to the fact that a mpeg2SD DVB-T STB can be purchased in Aus for under $50, which is no where near the price we are paying for DVB-S mpeg2SD boxs that are 99% identical and in technical terms differ by only a small component of equal value.

Cyril

and how many did the chainstores order there 50000? 100000? thats the difference.

[ahnz]

ahnz, I am well aware of the technology and what will be deployed here your telling the wrong audience, my comment simply refered to the fact that a mpeg2SD DVB-T STB can be purchased in Aus for under $50, which is no where near the price we are paying for DVB-S mpeg2SD boxs that are 99% identical and in technical terms differ by only a small component of equal value.

Cyril

Noted. Not taking a dig at you. Just clarifying to those reading the posts that cheaper Australian DTT receivers will not work here. Look at this link http://www.efrontier.co.nz/estore/product_info.php?cPath=44&products_id=154 , it is off a ".nz" website. It will probably be updated to "Australia only" shortly.

As for MPEG-2SD DVB-T vs DVB-S, there is additional cost in licensed/patented technology depending on the model, eg CI stack, USALS, Middleware. Also, the distribution of DTT receiver to end-user is more direct against DTH. Satellite installs are slightly more technical so there is an extra tier ( the installer ) added to the price structure.