TV1 and TV2 widescreen via Sky

[JerTre]

Is anyone else having the problem where TV1 and TV2 via Sky are a widescreen image squashed into a 4:3 ratio picture? It has been that way for me since they both went to widescreen on Sky. I have asked both Sky and TVNZ about it and they both blamed each other.

I can fix the picture on my widescreen tv if I force everything to the 16:9 shape but that screws up the 4:3 channels then.

Anyone know how/when this will be sorted out and they will be received as actual 16:9 signals like TV3 etc?

[Apsattv]

Have you set your sky decoder to 16x9?

Leave your tv set on AUTO

[cyril]

TVNZ like TV3 operate in 16:9 all the time, therefore you should put your STB and TV in 16:9. Any material that is not 16:9 (ie 4:3) will be correctly shown as 4:3 within a 16:9 frame on your TV. Therefore there will be bars to the left and right. There is some matieral (particually aussie sourced adverts) that are somewhere between so you may see less side bars.

This is the correct method of showing 4:3 material on a 16:9 display. If you want to fill the entire screen when 4:3 material is shown then maybe you have misunderstood how all this works.

Just of interest my wife purchased a painting the other day, cost a bom, she traded her late mode BMW for it. Problem is the wall I want to put it on is a differnt shape and size. Do you know anyone that can do a good butchers job on the painting to stretch it to fit.

Cyril

[JerTre]

Yes. Widescreen tv set to Auto Zoom, Sky set to 16:9. All channels display as expected - 16:9 fill screen correctly, 4:3 stretched horizontally slightly with top and bottom slightly cropped as expected.

TV1 and TV2 are received as a 16:9 picture in a 4:3 shape so therefore are displayed stretched vertically with top and bottom slightly cropped as a normal 4:3 picture is displayed ... when the source program on TV1 is 4:3 i get the 4:3 + sidebars within a 4:3 shape ... stretched vertically

TV3 and all other 16:9 channels fill screen correctly at correct ratio.

It's kind of hard to explain.

[JerTre]

I gather that it appears fine for you guys then ... just like TV3 etc

[mas]

[QUOTE=JerTre;553]Yes. Widescreen tv set to Auto Zoom, Sky set to 16:9. All channels display as expected - 16:9 fill screen correctly, 4:3 stretched horizontally slightly with top and bottom slightly cropped as expected.

Hi set your tv to 16:9 or wide, dont set it to auto zoom.

[Apsattv]

Yeah Auto Zoom sounds like it trys to blow up the pic to fit the screen?

What does the tv manual say?

[cyril]

The TV has been signalled (via line23 WSS) by the box that the channel you are currently watching is 16:9 (as that is what it is) therefore all the auto, zoom, stretch functions no longer work, they only apply to channels that are either not signaled at all or signal as 4:3.

It could be that the Auto mode on your TV is reacting incorrrectly, purhaps you should leave it off. From my observation the flags on Sky are correctly set for TVNZ.

The other thing you must understand is that TVNZ/Canwest now operate their playout facitiites entirely as 16:9 24/7, there is no concept within their facilities of 4:3. Any new 4:3 material recieved inbound (or from archive) is immediately converted into 16:9 frames by the addition of side pillarbox bars. That 4:3 material from this point on is treated as a 16:9 image (albeit a 4:3 image but within a 16:9 frame). The playout facility has no ability to deal with different aspect ratios, hence all material is converted into 16:9 frames.

I have noted that Canwest maintain the original 4:3 image within a 16:9 frame, however I have noted that TVNZ seem to use other aspects like 14:9 as a compromise, however still within a 16:9 frame, hence even on a 16:9 display you will still see small bars to the side.

Remember this pillarboxing is only applied to 4:3 material, this is a transition period, over the next few months there will be less and less inbound 4:3 material to be pillarboxed into 16:9 frames.

What you are seeing is correct, and is internationally the standard practice of broadcasters, expect to see this more and more, then again 4:3 images will become less and less so eventually it will be a nonevent.

Cyril

[paulw]

The one that slacks me off is the 4:3 letterbox presos like Discovery and TCM Channels seem to do

[cyril]

I understand Skys Mt Wellington facitlity is under major overhaul as we speak, one of the upgrades is to allow 16:9 on all channels should they choose.

Cyril

[JerTre]

Thanks for your comments.

I just had another play with the tv settings now. When I set the tv to 4:3 mode it displays both TV3 and TV1's 16:9 picture squashed into a 4:3 shape with black bars left and right. When I set the tv back to auto-format it shows TV3's 16:9 picture filling the screen correctly and TV1's 16:9 picture still squashed into a 4:3 shape and 'auto-zoomed'.

It looks like it is the Sky decoder that is misreading the ratio signals based on the location of the synopsis/info bar down the bottom (shape/position different on widescreen feeds). Any further thoughts? It's a Zenith decoder.

[JerTre]

... and both were showing 16:9 programs

[Apsattv]

Which outputs are you feeding to the tv from the sky box?

What model is your tv set?

can you post some photos? it may make things easier.

[JerTre]

Four photos attached. All widescreen footage. Comparing TV1 and TV3 at 4:3 mode on the tv and auto-zoom (which shows TV3 fullscreen, correct ratio and TV1 stretched vertically as if it was squashed into 4:3). Note the positions of the ONE and 3 logos and onscreen sky menus.

The tv is a Phillips 32PW8808 CRT. Scart/Svideo to TV.

[richms]

The 3rd pic shows the tv in 4:3 mode when on tv3, it shouldnt be since 3 is a widescreen channel. That is a 16:9 ad since it has loads of empty space to the sides to make the pic of the camera in the 4:3 safe area, and the distortion of the sky menu at the bottom shows that the tv is doing the 4:3 pillarboxing, not the broadcaster.

So the sky box is outputting 16:9, and your tv is treating it as 4:3 and pillarboxing it. In the bunnings ad it looks all normal. If you have changed nothing between those 2 shots (3rd and 4th) then something crazy is going on since there should be no change at all on the display when on the same channel without you changing it yourself on the remote.

What does the tv show when you go to a 4:3 channel like (shudder) the living channel?

[JerTre]

As I explained, the photos show TV1 and TV3 in both 4:3 mode and auto zoom mode on the tv. The 3rd pic is showing a widescreen image on TV3 in 4:3 mode. The purpose of this is to demonstrate that the TV1 and TV3 picture (widescreen source) in 4:3 mode have the same dimensions. My problem is that once in auto-zoom mode on the tv, TV3 is displayed correctly but TV1 is still treated as a 4:3 picture, still squashed (not obvious in the sample sorry).

The reason I showed the Sky menus is to demonstrate that Sky thinks it is 4:3 as well (not a tv issue but perhaps a decoder issue?) based on the size and position of the Sky menus no the screen in the 'full-screen' pics.

Pic 1 : TV1 with tv in 4:3 mode
Pic 2 : TV1 with tv in auto-zoom mode (should be fullscreen 'to fit' 16:9 but note position of 'ONE' logo off the top of the screen and size/position of Sky menu
Pic 3 : TV3 with tv in 4:3 mode
Pic 4 : TV3 in auto-zoom ... perfect 16:9 display, fits properly

Living Channel : in 4:3 mode on tv shows picture with correct dimensions with black bars left and right. In auto-zoom mode, zoomed to fill screen with top and bottom slightly cropped.

[richms]

It sounds like auto zoom is just a guessing mode, and not actually using the WSS data properly, since in automode, living channel should be pillarboxed like pics 1 and 3 are.

I would be calling philips about now, since its worked fine on the TV's I have tried it on except my panasonic 4:3 which seems to have a phobia of pal widescreen signals but likes ntsc ones just fine.

How does your tv handle widescreen from a dvd player?

I dont have a sky box here anymore to plug into my pc and run dscaler to look at the WSS on it, so cant tell you if thats the problem or not. I know there are loads of unused modes in it for things like 14:9 and the position on the screen, since I have being reading a little on it recently since my bloody tv needs me to change the aspect whenever I play topgear divx's on my xbox since they are the only pal widescreen content it will ever see ;)

[JerTre]

Auto-Zoom works fine on every other 4:3 and 16:9 channel. It recognizes 16:9 and displays fullscreen, correct ratio. It shows 4:3 in a slightly stretched, slightly cropped mode so it fills the screen.

TV1 and TV2 are the only 16:9 channels it treats as 4:3 so something is different. As the pictures 'kind-of' demonstrate by the size/location of the onscreen menu/synopsis, it is the Sky decoder that is misreading the widescreen info, not the tv. Sky sizes the onscreen stuff differebtly when it recognizes a channel as 16:9.

I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot, but I know what I'm seeing.

Widescreen from a DVD player is fine, the auto-zoom mode recognizes the ratio and displays it fullscreen. The 'even widerscreen' format (most movies) is displayed with thin black bars top and bottom.

[cyril]

I think the philips auto zoom function detects black in the first few lines and interperets that as a letterboxed 4:3 source so attempts to zoom it up to get rid of the black bars, or something. Sounds like that is getting confused.

All I can say is that on my two Sky boxs one Zenith and one Pace connected to two different 16:9 displays none philips, it works just fine.

Cyril

[richms]

The sky boxes I have had a play on have not displayed anything differently at all when on a wide or 4:3 channel, the only change comes from how the display stretches it.

I have also seen no problems with sky on widescreen tv's, except for one which doesnt support signalling except the old way via scart, so it had to be on the scart directly from the sky box.

[JerTre]

Skys onscreen info/synopsis overlay is proportionately longer horizontally on a channel recognised as 16:9.

I'm going to do some testing tonight with another decoder against mine on my tv, see if I can deduce anything further.

As an aside, I tried setting my Sky decoder to 4:3 letterbox, and the tv to 16:9 zoom, and the ratios display correctly for all 16:9 channels, TV1/2 included except the sky overlays go off the top and bottom of the screen, but the overall quality is reduced significantly so isn't an ongoing option for me.

The decoder appears to only have the issue with recognising TV1/2 as 16:9 on 16:9 mode. 4:3 letterbox and cut display as you'd expect.

[richms]

The longer box at the bottom of the screen is because the display compresses it horizontally when in 4:3 mode - thats nothing to do with the sky box.

Watching with it in letterbox wont be an option because you will still have to change the tv between 16:9 and 4:3 when you change channels.

Noone else has this problem on their skybox, so I would point the finger at your tv still.

[JerTre]

Am testing at the moment with another decoder which is doing the same thing, and yes I think you're right.

Is the 16:9 signalling any different in the TV1/2 feed compared to TV3? Is there a setting on my tv I should look for to (even in the service menu) to change to pick up the TV1/2 16:9 trigger?

Thanks for humouring me by the way, I appreciate bouncing thoughts and questions of guys that know what they're talking about.

[cyril]

I dont know exactly what the issue is, however I strongly suspect the auto mode is overiding the real flags. I suspect that TVNZ have a couple of lines of black as a result of the way their ARC is configured, this may be confusing the auto mode of some sets like the philips. Try override that.

Cyril

[JerTre]

Thanks for your help guys